In this episode, we're joined by our colleague, Rachel Wade who's a fiction author and copywriter at Artus. Discussing Rachel's fantastic debut novel Crow's Haunt and the intertwined relationship between creative writing and copywriting, Zach and Rachel consider storytelling from concept to creation. 
Zach Greaves 00:03 
Welcome to Words that Work. My name is Zach Greaves, Founder and Director of Artus Digital Marketing. I founded Artus in 2018 to help businesses tell their unique story through powerful copywriting services. And we're here to empower businesses to tell their own story through compelling copy and content. Today, I'm delighted to be joined with my colleague, Rachel Wade, who's a fiction author, as well as a copywriter here artists. Welcome to you, Rachel, and thanks so much for joining us. 
Rachel Wade 00:37 
Thank you, Zach. 
Zach Greaves 00:39 
So Rachel, you've been with us? Goodness, it must be nearly knocking on three years now. And perhaps Rachel, you'd like to just discuss a little bit about your career today? And how you got involved with us here at Artus? 
Rachel Wade 01:00 
Yeah, absolutely. So I started down in London, doing a BA in English, then came back up to settle in York to complete my MA. While I was doing my MA, I got a part time job at an art gallery. I stayed within the heritage sector after I'd finished my studies, ended up there for seven years. So, I started as a gallery guide, and then went into human resources, which was really interesting. I completed a qualification for that as well with CIPD. 
Then I went into marketing, which having been a passionate writer and done bits and pieces of journalism, I was really interested in marketing. So, I was there for four years with that company, and then I decided to retrain. So, I took a CELTA course, which is a qualification for teaching English as a foreign language. And I absolutely loved that I never thought I would be a teacher, but it's such a creative way of engaging students. 
And obviously, you meet students from all over the world. So that was a real privilege to be part of that sector. And I was about two years in both France and the UK. And then we were locked down, which, for somebody who is reliant on students travelling from abroad, didn't have the greatest impact on the sector. So unfortunately, I lost my job, my school closed down, which was a really, really difficult time. 
So, I turned to LinkedIn and had a look for potential job ideas or things I could do at home and came upon copywriting. I got in touch with Zach at Artus Digital Marketing and found out more about it and what it entailed, and then started doing a few bits and pieces for Artus in 2020. 
I also got a few part time jobs in retail. Alongside that I wrote a novel, as you do during lockdown, and that got published dated September 2021. And then since then, I've been continuing my work with Artus, and I've been doing creative writing and teaching, which I absolutely love. That's been such a privilege. And I also volunteer as a mentor, a career mentor, and I've been the library system as well. So lots of variety. 
Zach Greaves 03:47 
Variety, but the common thread of storytelling throughout even as a gallery guide, you know that there's that emphasis on storytelling there. Albeit verbal, but it’s incredible what you've packed into the last few years, Rachel and again, I'm so glad that LinkedIn brought us together and that you reached out as you did. 
It is about taking that step and not worrying sometimes about the consequences. So absolutely, delighted to have you and, and all of the rest of the team with me. And thanks for all of your work everything that you do for it. That includes some editing for other authors as well and book editing. But quite honestly, I don't quite know how you fit it all in. I couldn't possibly begin to write a novel as you've done Rachel and ashamed to say I'm only 78% of the way through it having yourself haven't released it nearly a year to the day. 
Rachel Wade 05:08 
Busy copywriters, I guess! You don’t really get time for leisurely reading. 
Zach Greaves 05:15 
Yeah, I do get a little bit tired at the end of the day. But really Rachel, you know, keen to explore that concept of storytelling with you, of course, that's kind of the purpose of this podcast. But there's two different angles to go out with this. And some comparisons to be drawn between the process of writing a novel writing for fiction, and how you apply storytelling to your work for Artus, too. 
So where do we start with that? I suppose, I suppose storytelling for all of us, it goes back to childhood, doesn't it? So let's talk a little bit about the books that you read growing up and how that has influenced your life, not just your career? 
Rachel Wade 06:12 
Well, I guess like you say, that's the thread that's run through all of my career, even though I've had very varied jobs, the role in some way have always been to do with communication and telling a story, whether that's engaging a customer to buy a product, or working with a team to come up with a marketing concept, or writing a blog or social media posts. And so, it's been something that I've been really interested in, and it offers so much variety, not just in terms of your career, but also your interests and hobbies, which, for me, is obviously creative writing. 
And so, I can't really remember the moment when I started writing stories or got interested, but obviously, it was a big part of my childhood. And I remember having a notebook and just filling it with, with stories. I can't remember what those stories were. But I just remembered that as it was just this drive to keep writing and writing and writing. And, when I was very young kind of primary school, I didn't want to read, because I wanted to write my own stories. So it was a very reluctant reader at school until kind of late primary school and secondary school and then got really into reading. And I found that I've kind of developed as a reader as well, because a lot of people read, for kind of escapism, and, and to relax. But for me, I read to learn, I read to learn the skill of storytelling. 
So, it's not just reading a book for fun, it's reading a book to find out how the author has crafted that story. So, it's a bit of a study process, whenever I'm reading anything, which I guess, led to the university, BA and MA, but it's always been a bit of a combination of wanting to write my own stories, engage readers, and then using reading, whether it's novels, magazines, websites, to kind of develop my skills and my technical abilities. So, I guess that's fed through both in my creative writing, but also going into journalism and then into copywriting as well. 
Zach Greaves 08:39 
And it is gaining those multiple different perspectives, which I think is powerful, isn't it? You know, different stories for different purposes are crafted in different ways. Absolutely. It's, it's invaluable as a copywriter or indeed a fiction author to understand those methods to an extent. But what always amazes me Rachel is when I view your Instagram every week, there's another couple of books on your reading list. I mean, this is talking as one of the slowest readers in the world I'm sure, and definitely one of the worst read English graduates ever. I'm just such a slow reader. Thoreau is probably the word. 
Rachel Wade 09:33 
Well, to be honest, I'm the same and that was something that put me off at school and even at university. I'm a very slow reader. I can't skim read, like some people can't. I have got I've got a friend who can just whiz through books in an evening because she skim reads and should get the gist of the story. 
Whereas I have to understand every word why it's been written, how it's been written, what it means in the overall story. But I'll tell you what it was actually lockdown, that made me a better reader. Because I had that time to invest in reading. Not only novels, but reading anything I could get my hands on. And it's a skill like anything else. And the more you read, the quicker you get, and the more you get used to different styles and a different author’s voices. And yeah, there's nothing wrong with being a slow reader. I'm all for slow reading. But I do tend to get through quite a lot of books at the moment. 
Zach Greaves 10:40 
Rachel Wade 10:44 
But, I have found that it, it really does help me when I'm writing my own novels or even writing blogs or social media for clients. The more I've read, I think the stronger I've become as a writer, it's one of the easiest ways you can hone your skills if you want to write. 
Zach Greaves 11:03 
Certainly, in choice of language, and you know, expanding your vocabulary, and structuring pieces of work, I certainly find readings incredibly invaluable there and definitely expanding your reading remit into to, perhaps challenging territory for yourself something that you wouldn't normally open the cover off. 
So how so first of all, Rachel, what's on your reading list at the moment? And, and how do you challenge yourself with your reading. 
Rachel Wade 11:43 
So, my current read, I actually started it yesterday. But it's so good that I've just, every moment I've got, I just read a couple more pages. So, it's Agatha Christie's Murder on the Orient Express. And it's one of those stories that I've known for, you know, since I was a teenager seeing adaptations, films, there's been quite a recent one with Johnny Depp in so I know the story. 
I know the twist at the end, but to read how Agatha Christie puts it across. She's a very, very skilled writer. And I mean, as an author, her history is fascinating. Just not only the quality, but the quantity of work that she produced in her lifetime is exceptional. So I definitely recommend as both an interesting read, for pleasure, but also to look at how she crafts. Basically, what is a criminal investigation, and Poirot unravelling the story. 
So that's, that's really recommended, I do tend to read a lot of magazines. I love the way that journalists portray a subject or a topic. And you'll find that a lot of magazines are getting quite creative with it now because it's a tough world out there. They're competing with digital publications that compose something, you know, every hour every day. So, I find magazine journalism has really kind of got a lot more interest in in the past few years. 
So, with all the cycling events that have been coming up this year, I do get the cyclist weekly magazine. But I just find that the quality of the journalism is just really high. And I always learn something when I read an article in there. And then I guess the other thing I'm reading is my own work. So, I've got a second novel in progress. And I'm researching a third novel. So, they're kind of always on my mind. 
So, if I'm feeling good, I'm feeling productive, I’ll maybe just spend 15/20 minutes reading and editing, sometimes just reading because it can take some time to absorb what you've read, and to kind of reflect on it and know how to change it. So, that's kind of a completely well, it's a different reading process, let's say. So, I read for pleasure. I read for kind of technical skills that will help me at work. And then I read as a requirement of doing my own creative writing. 
Zach Greaves 14:47 
Absolutely your own editing. And we all know the challenges of that too, don't we? But I just find it fascinating that it's not necessarily always about putting yourself in a locked room for hours on end the writing and editing process, but it can be snatches of time, you know, snatches of 10/15 minutes or so where you absorb yourself in it. And give yourself that space and processing time, as you say, it's for thoughts and ideas to mull over. 
Rachel Wade 15:27 
Yeah, I think it's whether you're writing creatively, or you're doing copywriting or even if you're just working on your own blog. It's something that a lot of, of students, when I've done creative writing courses have said to me, I just don't have time to write, I don't have time to physically put pen to paper or sit with a laptop. 
But actually, the time that you spend reading, the time that you spend researching time you spend making notes, even just thinking about what you want to write, and how you want to write it is really valuable. And I often find, well, I found from personal experience, if I force myself to write, the results are going to be worse than if I let it come naturally. And if I give myself that time, and that distance, to really think about it, and sometimes you don't have that opportunity, you know, especially if you've got a deadline, if you're doing it for a client, but even just five minutes, you know, have a cup of tea, come back, read through your work. And nine times out of 10, you will find something to edit or something to improve. And I think that's, that's as valuable as, as the writing itself, is that reading and editing process? No matter what kind of writing you're doing? 
Zach Greaves 16:48 
Absolutely. And I think this is where both styles of writing, you know, for commercial purposes and for fiction purposes. Ultimately, they boil down to the same thing, don't they, in terms of the research and planning stage, being as vital, if not more so than the writing itself? And I know we've spoken previously about, you know, how do you overcome that writer's block when you when you don't have the luxury like you say, of, you know, sitting and mulling it over for hours, or giving yourself that space and time away from it is the planning and research, isn't it? 
So, let's talk then a little bit, Rachel, about the planning and research stage for Crow’s Haunt, your debut novel which is available on Amazon to purchase. Well, first of all, let's talk a little bit about the novel itself. If you give a bit of a summary of it without giving too much away, Rachel, no spoilers please! And to your prospective audience here, it’s definitely worth taking a look and buying Rachel's book, it is tremendous. Give us a flavour about what people might be able to expect Rachael. 
Rachel Wade 18:22 
Well, so simply put, it's, it's a mystery, intriguing mystery set in Victorian York. So, I used a lot of research about the not only the time period, but about York as it was in that time. And actually, the idea for the story came about from the memories of my great uncle. He used to live in York, by King’s Square and he used to tell me about this woman who owned a shop and he just had loads of hand gestures and he was describing all these things that she had all over the walls and on the ceiling and outside and it just sounded mad. 
And apparently this woman was quite particular with who went in her shop. And my uncle being a bit of a Yorkshire likely lad, I can imagine him trying to sneak a peek around the door of what her latest wares were, but I just loved it. It just it was just such a vivid description. It sparked something in my imagination. And then, sadly, my uncle passed away and it brought the story back to me. 
So, I went to York archives and started looking to find out what the shop was and who this woman was that he had talked about. And I found a picture of a woman called Mrs. Thornton stood on the corner of the shambles outside her shop and it was just as my uncle described it. And I thought, okay, this lady's got history, she's got a story to tell behind this, this shop that she runs on her own. And so, using that as my inspiration, I kind of took the story back a bit to late Victorian times, again, more research with fantastic resources at York archives. 
And my dad was very into mystery stories and crime thrillers. And I kind of thought, okay, let's, let's try and create a plot that my dad would like. So yeah, I thought, okay, what what's going to happen to Mrs. Holden, as she was for me, I changed it from Mrs. Thornton, she was very much my character, I just kind of roll with it just kind of used both ideas for my research and through events and through locations, and kind of weaved them into my own characters and my own plots. 
I mean I've written since I was a child, but it's always been short stories. I've always liked to write something and finish it within a few days. Whereas this was obviously a massive investment of time and energy and thought process to get to that 90,000-word, target. But it's wonderful. It was just so immersive, and to kind of deal with storytelling in such a big way. It was just fascinating for me. 
It was both using the skills that I had, and, and trying to enhance them and develop them and, you know, really understand, well, what is it that makes a novel? And how can I use my writing skills to achieve that? So yeah, it was, I mean, the, the publication was completely unexpected, but it's given me such a boost to kind of feel that. Readers want to read what I've written, pretty much I've always written for enjoyment. I've never, you know, put anything out there really, until lockdown. But a few short stories into competitions, and then obviously, got the novel published. So, it's been quite a journey. But Crow’s Haunt is a real labour of love, let's say. 
Zach Greaves 22:49 
Absolutely. Well, you know, huge credit to you, Rachel, for going out there and doing it because I know a lot of people talk about, I've got this book idea, or I've made a start. But actually, you know, taking it from concept to completion, it's certainly no mean feat. 
So, congratulations to you. And as I say, in awe of what you've written, to be honest with you, and I would recommend it to everyone to give it a read. But I find that that process of research, fascinating but also how such a small thing, you know, it could be, you know, I know, it wasn't a passing comment necessarily with your uncle. But that could have been something that you forgot about. And I just find it so interesting how such a seemingly small and insignificant thing can become the source of inspiration for something such as a novel. 
I've been dreaming a lot recently, and a lot of my dreams have been influenced by just small passing things that have happened in my daily life the day before. So, and of course, that's your own mind conjuring stories as you sleep. So yeah, I don't really know where I'm going with this. But I suppose for our clients, too I know that a lot of them might come to us because they don't have time to do it themselves. But also, there's I suppose a fear that I have not had having something to say or a fear of saying the wrong thing. But I think by and large, actually all the inspiration you need is there for your ready. It's about identity. 
Find that and not being afraid to expand it into a social media post or blog. Or indeed, if you're looking at writing a novel, a bigger piece of work. So, let's talk then a little bit about the process of writing shorter form content. And shorter form, relatively speaking, of course, having just discussed novels. But that's just compare that process, then Rachel to from writing a novel to, let's say, writing a blog for on behalf of a client. 
Rachel Wade 25:43 
Yeah, absolutely. I think that's where the term storytelling is really good, because what you described with my uncle's narrative and your dreams, and if a client comes to us and says, oh, we're thinking about writing about this topic or this interest, as your story, you've got your idea, your little seed of an idea you want to grow. But it's the telling, that can be the difficult part is the telling, that needs research and planning and structuring, and writing. 
So, it’s the combination of both story and telling that we use in copywriting and I use in my novel writing. And there are a lot of similarities between the two because of that, as I say, the research I find is crucial. I really admire anyone that can just right off the top of their heads. And how has that confidence and that skill to do so. But for me, research helps massively it's kind of the first building blocks of creating your story or telling your story. And whether that's doing a novel or doing a blog for a client, I find out as much as I can, so that I've got those kinds of building blocks to work on. And then it's a question of structure in them of planning ahead. 
So, blogs are fantastic, because there's kind of a kind of a set of expectations that that readers have, online, of what a blog needs to do, what it needs to provide and how it needs to provide it. You've kind of already got your skeleton to work out, and you're just fleshing it out with the information and the research that you've used, keeping in mind, who your client is, what message they want to put across, and who their target audience are. 
And again, it works for novels as well, you've got to have your structure there, you've got to know what you're trying to say, with your 90,000 words, what kind of reader you want to engage with, and how you're going to do it as a writer. So that's a really, really important part of progressing with a story. 
I always like the traditional beginning, middle and end, because it's amazing how easily people forget that. Even if you're writing a tweet, you know, have you got a nice opener? Have you got a middle part that gives some reason to keep reading or to move on to the call to action? And then yeah, your end is kind of either your call to action or your key message. So, I always think of that beginning, middle, end structure, no matter what I'm working on. Because that's that storytelling. That's what we know. That's what we like, that's what we look for. If you just give someone a call to action, they're not going to engage with it, because you haven't given them the story, you haven't given them that incentive. So that structure works for any kind of writing. 
Zach Greaves 28:54 
Rachel Wade 28:55 
And I guess, if there is any difference, it's maybe just the level of creativity. Obviously, when you're writing your own novel, you can pretty much do what you want. But if you want it read, and you want it published, then you've still got those conventions and expectations, whether of genre of the kind of trends in novels at the moment or trying to get an agent or a publisher. 
And the same for businesses, you know, your audience are going to have expectations of how you write and what you write about. And it's focused on communicating with them and engaging them. That that is similar. So maybe the level of creativity is a little bit different between the two but I've still had clients who are really up for being very creative with their blogs and their social media. So, there's always that element of using your imagination and being a storyteller, no matter what business you're writing for. 
Zach Greaves 30:03 
Of course. There is I think one thing that I've been thinking of is a crucial difference between the two, I suppose is that the tone of voice and you've got completely free reign over as a fiction author. Obviously, you have got a target audience in mind, given the genre of the book, in all likelihood, but with our clients, that understanding and reflecting that tone of voice is so important. So, how do you go about that? Rachel, I know that we, you know, in recent months, we've developed some I hesitate to say, template, but some guidelines, I suppose, in understanding each of our clients. But how do you tap into that when you are creating content? 
Rachel Wade 31:03 
Yeah, so again, it's back to research. We've created these documents for each client, our regular clients, it's just kind of a helpful reminder for all of the team, who they are, what they do, and who their target audience are. 
So, even if I've been working with a client for quite a while, these information sheets that we've produced are really useful for having just that refresher of, of who the client is. I always go on the client website and see if there was any updates, if they put any news or articles up there themselves. Quick look at the social media is often really helpful. A lot of clients, obviously, social media is so familiar to people that a lot of clients will post their own updates. So again, I just kind of look at the tone of voice they're using, what kind of imagery they use alongside their copy. And just try and use that to both inspire me and also gives me some direction of what kind of style they would like to continue with and really trying to reflect the tone of voice that that they have for their business. It's quite a challenge, because obviously, businesses, even within the same sector, that can be very different, are very different. But the more you can familiarise yourself with the business, the easier it becomes to kind of replicate the kind of personality, their identity essentially. 
Zach Greaves 32:45 
Absolutely. And, you know, as a business, whilst we can work remotely and very successfully, too, I often find that there's no substitute for actually talking to people face to face. If that is on a zoom call, fair enough, but you know, by and large, it's much better to see someone's workplace in the flesh, where possible, and talk to them in person, which as I say, it's not always possible, but we, we do try to do that. 
Thanks, Rachel. So, we’re approaching the end of the podcast now, I suppose. But perhaps you could give us an insight into what it's like to be a published fiction author and how that last year has been? 
Rachel Wade 33:45 
Oh, that's an interesting question. I don't feel I can speak for kind of the typical first time, published author but that it just is still feels surreal. It still feels like a dream. Never, never would have imagined. I've always hoped. I always wished it could happen. But every time I pick up my own novel from my own bookshelf, I just think I don't think that's mad. It really has meant a great deal to me. And it's given me that incentive to keep going to keep writing. 
I know that this is only the beginning. I feel like I can push myself and create something bigger and better than Crow’s Haunt as much as I love it. It was a first project and the more people read it, and the more people give me feedback, and I take part in events and book groups, I love doing book groups. And the more that my mind is going: what if I tried that approach? What if I change this what If I added a different style or played around with it. So yeah, it's been an amazing experience. And I really feel that it's the start, and I have more writing to come which is exciting. Which is why I keep I keep making notes every day - oh, that's a good idea. Oh, shall I do this? Let me just have another quick edit of my second novel. 
Rachel Wade 35:27 
Yeah, it's amazing for a writer to be published. 
Zach Greaves 35:33 
Fantastic. So, when can we expect novel number two, Rachel? 
Rachel Wade 35:40 
Oh, my goodness, how long is a piece of string? The thing I found with Crow’s Haunt was that writing it was one thing, editing it was another that the editing over 90,000-word novel that you've kind of written pretty much off the top of your head. I mean, I had reset, but the plotting had to be quite flexible, and you change things as you go. 
I tried to ensure that consistency, and that every single twist and turn in the narrative makes sense, throughout is, is like, yeah, it's a bit like a needle in a haystack. Like, you know, you've got to get it done. You don't quite know how long it's going to take. But again, I think reflecting on and learning from my first novel, will hopefully help with the second one. So, fingers crossed, if it has any interest for publication and comes out next year, that would be fantastic. But yeah, we'll see how it goes. 
Zach Greaves 36:54 
Well, I'm really looking forward to that. And I know that from what you've told me anyway, Rachel, it's, it's a different story altogether to Crow’s Haunt in terms of style and genre. So, it will be interesting to see a different style of writing too. So that's fantastic. And yeah, like you say, you must have learned so much in this process. And I can imagine, you know, you must feel when you hit send on that final edit the catharsis of that and the liberation. So, all credit to you for going through it again. 
Rachel Wade 37:39 
Thank you. It's like it's like having a child. You put all this time and effort and energy into it. And then you give birth to this beautiful thing. And you're so proud. You want everyone to say, oh, your baby's beautiful. Like, yes, that's my novel. That's my pride and joy. Yeah, it's yeah, it's amazing experience. 
Zach Greaves 38:04 
Absolutely. But we, you know, we need people to read it too. And I think that that's so valuable, especially for newly published authors. It's really important for people to get behind by so, so please do help Rachel, I can thoroughly recommend her book Crow’s Haunt, which is available at Amazon. And I believe other good bookstores Rachel. So, Rachel, then in summary, as we always finish off our podcast, I'd like to hear some of your top tips for successful storytelling. And you might have some tips for budding authors too. But, you know, let's just think about storytelling as your whole and copywriting in particular, what are your top tips for successful storytelling? 
Rachel Wade 39:05 
So, I would say, Top tip number one, know your audience, very important. I find that with copywriting. Sometimes you write for the client, but the client, the client is going to read it and they might like it. But that's not the audience, exactly. Audience of their customers or their clients. So, and even with novel writing, if you're writing it for yourself, that's great. But sometimes, books can be so bespoke, let's say that you end up being the only one reading it. 
So, knowing your audience, I think is very important. Knowing your genre. Again, you know, if you're writing a blog, it has to look and feel like a blog. Otherwise, it's very confusing if you start writing a blog and posting trying to post it on Twitter. That it's not, it's not suitable for that platform. So again, if you try writing a crime thriller, and you suddenly have a great big romantic scene on top of the Eiffel Tower proposal, people are like, okay, this isn't working for me. So, knowing the genre is vital. And I would say, be brave - let's be brave with your editing. I know a lot of people and I know because I do it myself. When you write something, you put a lot of time and energy into it. And you think, Okay, I've done it. That's great. But actually, if you are quite brutal, and you start chopping and changing things, you are going to make it so much better. 
Zach Greaves 40:59 
I was going to say, is brutal the word you're looking for? 
Once you've done it, and you're brave enough to do it, when you get to that final point, and you think that's it, I've hit the nail on the head there. I've got my audience now I've got the genre done, my client are going to be happy, then then you know why you've spent that time cutting and rewriting and rewriting and rewriting. Yeah, but it is worth it. It is worth it absolutely. And again, with the novel, you really have to do that as well, 
Zach Greaves 41:38 
Of course. So last final thing, before we wrap up, Rachel, what's the one piece of advice you could give to a budding author? Because there must be so many people out there who were sitting on an idea that might have had it for a large proportion of their life? But they haven't managed to set pen to paper or get it finished? 
Rachel Wade 42:05 
Yes, oh, I could give so much advice. And it's going to be different for every single writer out there. It's so personal. And I applaud anyone who does any form of creative writing, because it really is putting your heart and soul into your work. But for me, the biggest game changer has been reading. When I read a book that I love, it gives me not only so many ideas, and so much knowledge and technical help with writing novel. But I also I just feel so motivated. I just you know, with this Agatha Christie, I'm reading I just think it's so fantastic. I want to write like that. What tips and ideas can I get from Agatha Christie that that I can weave into my work. So, keep reading, find authors and books that you love, understand why you love them. And then use that to motivate and influence your own writing. It's not about copying; it's about increasing your knowledge and enhancing your skills as a writer. 
Zach Greaves 43:15 
Wonderful, Rachel. Well, thank you so much, we will leave it there, but some absolute nuggets of gold there from such an accomplished storyteller. And very proud to have you as on the team Rachel, and really wishing you every success with Crow’s Haunt as that gains its reputation, and with the new book too. And we'd like to point people in the direction of Fisher King publishing, who we work with a lot and who published Crow’s Haunt. So, if anybody is looking to publish their own novel, they might want to head over to Fisher King for some help and advice. But Wonderful to have you on the podcast Rachel, one of our first ones. So, thank you so much for joining me. It's been a real pleasure. So, invest in your own story with words that work, which is free to listen to twice a month on Apple, podcasts, Spotify, and whatever podcast app on your device. Head over to our website to learn more about our story. 
Thanks for listening, and we hope to see you soon 
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